{"id":"sn41.8","title":"The Jain Ascetic of the Ñātika Clan","languageCodes":["en","pi"],"languageNotes":{"en":"Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0","pi":"Mahāsaṅgīti edition · SuttaCentral"},"chapters":[{"id":"sn41.8","title":"The Jain Ascetic of the Ñātika Clan","units":[{"id":"sn41.8:0","sourceIds":["sn41.8:0.1","sn41.8:0.2","sn41.8:0.3"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Saṁyutta Nikāya 41.8\n1. Cittavagga\nNigaṇṭhanāṭaputtasutta","en":"Linked Discourses 41.8\n1. With Citta\nThe Jain Ascetic of the Ñātika Clan"}},{"id":"sn41.8:1","sourceIds":["sn41.8:1.1","sn41.8:1.2","sn41.8:1.3","sn41.8:1.4","sn41.8:1.5","sn41.8:1.6"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Tena kho pana samayena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto macchikāsaṇḍaṁ anuppatto hoti mahatiyā nigaṇṭhaparisāya saddhiṁ.\nAssosi kho citto gahapati: “nigaṇṭho kira nāṭaputto macchikāsaṇḍaṁ anuppatto mahatiyā nigaṇṭhaparisāya saddhin”ti.\nAtha kho citto gahapati sambahulehi upāsakehi saddhiṁ yena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā nigaṇṭhena nāṭaputtena saddhiṁ sammodi.\nSammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinnaṁ kho cittaṁ gahapatiṁ nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto etadavoca:\n“saddahasi tvaṁ, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa—\natthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṁ nirodho”ti?","en":"Now at that time the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan had arrived at Macchikāsaṇḍa together with a large assembly of Jain ascetics.\nCitta the householder heard that they had arrived.\nTogether with several lay followers, he went up to the Jain Ñātika and exchanged greetings with him.\nWhen the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. The Jain Ñātika said to him,\n“Householder, do you have faith in the ascetic Gotama’s claim that\nthere is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected?”"}},{"id":"sn41.8:2","sourceIds":["sn41.8:2.1","sn41.8:2.2","sn41.8:2.3","sn41.8:2.4"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"“Na khvāhaṁ ettha, bhante, bhagavato saddhāya gacchāmi.\nAtthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṁ nirodho”ti.\nEvaṁ vutte, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto ulloketvā etadavoca:\n“idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva ujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva asaṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva amāyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapati, vātaṁ vā so jālena bādhetabbaṁ maññeyya, yo vitakkavicāre nirodhetabbaṁ maññeyya, sakamuṭṭhinā vā so gaṅgāya sotaṁ āvāretabbaṁ maññeyya, yo vitakkavicāre nirodhetabbaṁ maññeyyā”ti.","en":"“Sir, in this case I don’t rely on faith in the Buddha’s claim that\nthere is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected.”\nWhen he said this, the Jain Ñātika looked up at his assembly and said,\n“See, good sirs, how straightforward this householder Citta is! He’s not devious or deceitful at all. To imagine that you can stop placing the mind and keeping it connected would be like imagining that you can catch the wind in a net, or dam the Ganges River with your own hand.”"}},{"id":"sn41.8:3","sourceIds":["sn41.8:3.1","sn41.8:3.2","sn41.8:3.3","sn41.8:3.4","sn41.8:3.5","sn41.8:3.6","sn41.8:3.7","sn41.8:3.8","sn41.8:3.9"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, bhante,\nkatamaṁ nu kho paṇītataraṁ—ñāṇaṁ vā saddhā vā”ti?\n“Saddhāya kho, gahapati, ñāṇaṁyeva paṇītataran”ti.\n“Ahaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.\nAhaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā …pe… dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.\nAhaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, pītiyā ca virāgā …pe… tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.\nAhaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, sukhassa ca pahānā …pe… catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.\nNa so khvāhaṁ, bhante, evaṁ jānanto evaṁ passanto kassa aññassa samaṇassa vā brāhmaṇassa vā saddhāya gamissāmi?\nAtthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṁ nirodho”ti.","en":"“What do you think, sir?\nWhich is better—knowledge or faith?”\n“Knowledge is definitely better than faith, householder.”\n“Well sir, whenever I want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.\nAnd whenever I want, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled … I enter and remain in the second absorption.\nAnd whenever I want, with the fading away of rapture … I enter and remain in the third absorption.\nAnd whenever I want, giving up pleasure and pain … I enter and remain in the fourth absorption.\nAnd so, sir, since I know and see like this, why should I rely on faith in another ascetic or brahmin who claims that\nthere is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected?”"}},{"id":"sn41.8:4","sourceIds":["sn41.8:4.1","sn41.8:4.2"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Evaṁ vutte, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto sakaṁ parisaṁ apaloketvā etadavoca:\n“idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva anujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva saṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva māyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapatī”ti.","en":"When he said this, the Jain Ñātika looked askance at his own assembly and said,\n“See, good fellows, how crooked this householder Citta is! He’s so devious and deceitful!”"}},{"id":"sn41.8:5","sourceIds":["sn41.8:5.1","sn41.8:5.2","sn41.8:5.3","sn41.8:5.4","sn41.8:5.5","sn41.8:5.6","sn41.8:5.7","sn41.8:5.8","sn41.8:5.9","sn41.8:5.10","sn41.8:5.11","sn41.8:5.12","sn41.8:5.13","sn41.8:5.14","sn41.8:5.15","sn41.8:5.16","sn41.8:5.17","sn41.8:5.18","sn41.8:5.19","sn41.8:5.20"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"“Idāneva kho te mayaṁ, bhante, bhāsitaṁ:\n‘evaṁ ājānāma idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva ujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva asaṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva amāyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapatī’ti.\nIdāneva ca pana mayaṁ, bhante, bhāsitaṁ:\n‘evaṁ ājānāma idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva anujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva saṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva māyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapatī’ti.\nSace te, bhante, purimaṁ saccaṁ, pacchimaṁ te micchā.\nSace pana te, bhante, purimaṁ micchā, pacchimaṁ te saccaṁ.\nIme kho pana, bhante, dasa sahadhammikā pañhā āgacchanti.\nYadā nesaṁ atthaṁ ājāneyyāsi, atha maṁ paṭihareyyāsi saddhiṁ nigaṇṭhaparisāya.\nEko pañho, eko uddeso, ekaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ.\nDve pañhā, dve uddesā, dve veyyākaraṇāni.\nTayo pañhā, tayo uddesā, tīṇi veyyākaraṇāni.\nCattāro pañhā, cattāro uddesā, cattāri veyyākaraṇāni.\nPañca pañhā, pañca uddesā, pañca veyyākaraṇāni.\nCha pañhā, cha uddesā, cha veyyākaraṇāni.\nSatta pañhā, satta uddesā, satta veyyākaraṇāni.\nAṭṭha pañhā, aṭṭha uddesā, aṭṭha veyyākaraṇāni.\nNava pañhā, nava uddesā, nava veyyākaraṇāni.\nDasa pañhā, dasa uddesā, dasa veyyākaraṇānī”ti.\nAtha kho citto gahapati nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ ime dasa sahadhammike pañhe āpucchitvā uṭṭhāyāsanā pakkāmīti.\nAṭṭhamaṁ.","en":"“Sir, just now I understood you to say:\n‘See, good fellows, how straightforward this householder Citta is! He’s not devious or deceitful at all.’\nBut then I understood you to say:\n‘See, good fellows, how crooked this householder Citta is! He’s so devious and deceitful!’\nIf your first statement is true, the second is wrong.\nIf your first statement is wrong, the second is true.\nAnd also, sir, these ten legitimate questions are relevant.\nWhen you understand what they mean, then, together with your assembly of Jain ascetics, you can rebut me.\n‘One thing: question, summary, and answer.\nTwo …\nThree …\nFour …\nFive …\nSix …\nSeven …\nEight …\nNine …\nTen things: question, summary, and answer.’”\nThen Citta rose from his seat and left without asking the Jain Ñātika these ten legitimate questions."}}]}],"sourceRevision":"afdafa92450cfe7573b280da50382888323666d2","sourceUrl":"https://suttacentral.net/sn41.8/en/sujato","licence":"CC0 1.0","licenceUrl":"https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/","editionNote":"Full supplied source file; inherited abbreviations are preserved. Not a reconstructed expansion of every repetition. No Malay or Mandarin translation is implied."}