{"id":"sn44.1","title":"With Khemā","languageCodes":["en","pi"],"languageNotes":{"en":"Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0","pi":"Mahāsaṅgīti edition · SuttaCentral"},"chapters":[{"id":"sn44.1","title":"With Khemā","units":[{"id":"sn44.1:0","sourceIds":["sn44.1:0.1","sn44.1:0.2","sn44.1:0.3"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Saṁyutta Nikāya 44.1\n1. Abyākatavagga\nKhemāsutta","en":"Linked Discourses 44.1\n1. The Undeclared Points\nWith Khemā"}},{"id":"sn44.1:1","sourceIds":["sn44.1:1.1","sn44.1:1.2","sn44.1:1.3","sn44.1:1.4","sn44.1:1.5"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā sāvatthiyaṁ viharati jetavane anāthapiṇḍikassa ārāme.\nTena kho pana samayena khemā bhikkhunī kosalesu cārikaṁ caramānā antarā ca sāvatthiṁ antarā ca sāketaṁ toraṇavatthusmiṁ vāsaṁ upagatā hoti.\nAtha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo sāketā sāvatthiṁ gacchanto, antarā ca sāketaṁ antarā ca sāvatthiṁ toraṇavatthusmiṁ ekarattivāsaṁ upagacchi.\nAtha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo aññataraṁ purisaṁ āmantesi:\n“ehi tvaṁ, ambho purisa, toraṇavatthusmiṁ tathārūpaṁ samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā jāna yamahaṁ ajja payirupāseyyan”ti.","en":"At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery.\nNow at that time the nun Khemā was wandering in the land of the Kosalans between Sāvatthī and Sāketa when she took up residence in Toraṇavatthu.\nThen King Pasenadi was traveling from Sāketa to Sāvatthī, and he too stayed in Toraṇavatthu for a single night.\nThen King Pasenadi addressed a man,\n“Please, my man, check if there’s a suitable (male) ascetic or brahmin in Toraṇavatthu to whom I can pay homage.”"}},{"id":"sn44.1:2","sourceIds":["sn44.1:2.1","sn44.1:2.2","sn44.1:2.3"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"“Evaṁ, devā”ti kho so puriso rañño pasenadissa kosalassa paṭissutvā kevalakappaṁ toraṇavatthuṁ āhiṇḍanto nāddasa tathārūpaṁ samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā yaṁ rājā pasenadi kosalo payirupāseyya.\nAddasā kho so puriso khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ toraṇavatthusmiṁ vāsaṁ upagataṁ.\nDisvāna yena rājā pasenadi kosalo tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā rājānaṁ pasenadiṁ kosalaṁ etadavoca:","en":"“Yes, Your Majesty,” replied that man. He searched all over Toraṇavatthu, but he couldn’t see a suitable ascetic or brahmin for the king to pay homage to.\nBut he saw that the nun Khemā was staying there,\nso he went to the king and said to him,"}},{"id":"sn44.1:3","sourceIds":["sn44.1:3.1","sn44.1:3.2","sn44.1:3.3","sn44.1:3.4","sn44.1:3.5"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"“Natthi kho, deva, toraṇavatthusmiṁ tathārūpo samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā yaṁ devo payirupāseyya.\nAtthi ca kho, deva, khemā nāma bhikkhunī, tassa bhagavato sāvikā arahato sammāsambuddhassa.\nTassā kho pana ayyāya evaṁ kalyāṇo kittisaddo abbhuggato:\n‘paṇḍitā, viyattā medhāvinī bahussutā cittakathā kalyāṇapaṭibhānā’ti.\nTaṁ devo payirupāsatū”ti.","en":"“Your Majesty, there’s no (male) ascetic or brahmin in Toraṇavatthu for the king to pay homage to.\nBut there is the nun Khemā, who’s a disciple of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha.\nShe has a good reputation as being\nastute, competent, intelligent, learned, a brilliant speaker, and eloquent.\nYour Majesty may pay homage to her.”"}},{"id":"sn44.1:4","sourceIds":["sn44.1:4.1","sn44.1:4.2","sn44.1:4.3","sn44.1:4.4","sn44.1:4.5","sn44.1:4.6","sn44.1:4.7","sn44.1:4.8","sn44.1:4.9","sn44.1:4.10","sn44.1:4.11","sn44.1:4.12","sn44.1:4.13"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo yena khemā bhikkhunī tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho rājā pasenadi kosalo khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ etadavoca:\n“kiṁ nu kho, ayye, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?\n“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, bhagavatā:\n‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.\n“Kiṁ panayye, na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?\n“Etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ bhagavatā:\n‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.\n“Kiṁ nu kho, ayye, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?\n“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, bhagavatā:\n‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.\n“Kiṁ panayye, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti.\n“Etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ bhagavatā:\n‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.","en":"Then King Pasenadi of Kosala went up to the nun Khemā, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to her:\n“Ma’am, does a realized one still exist after death?”\n“Great king, this has not been declared by the Buddha.”\n“Well then, does a realized one no longer exist after death?”\n“This too has not been declared by the Buddha.”\n“Well then, does a realized one both still exist and no longer exist after death?”\n“This has not been declared by the Buddha.”\n“Well then, does a realized one neither still exist nor no longer exist after death?”\n“This too has not been declared by the Buddha.”"}},{"id":"sn44.1:5","sourceIds":["sn44.1:5.1","sn44.1:5.2","sn44.1:5.3","sn44.1:5.4","sn44.1:5.5","sn44.1:5.6","sn44.1:5.7","sn44.1:5.8","sn44.1:5.9","sn44.1:5.10","sn44.1:5.11","sn44.1:5.12","sn44.1:5.13"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"“‘Kiṁ nu kho, ayye, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti, iti puṭṭhā samānā:\n‘abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, bhagavatā—\nhoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi.\n‘Kiṁ panayye, na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭhā samānā:\n‘etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ bhagavatā—\nna hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi.\n‘Kiṁ nu kho, ayye, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭhā samānā:\n‘abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, bhagavatā—\nhoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi.\n‘Kiṁ panayye, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭhā samānā:\n‘etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ bhagavatā—\nneva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi.\nKo nu kho, ayye, hetu, ko paccayo yenetaṁ abyākataṁ bhagavatā”ti?","en":"“Ma’am, when asked these questions, you say\nthat this has not been declared by the Buddha.\nWhat’s the cause, what’s the reason why this has not been declared by the Buddha?”"}},{"id":"sn44.1:6","sourceIds":["sn44.1:6.1","sn44.1:6.2","sn44.1:6.3","sn44.1:6.4","sn44.1:6.5","sn44.1:6.6","sn44.1:6.7","sn44.1:6.8","sn44.1:6.9","sn44.1:6.10","sn44.1:6.11","sn44.1:6.12","sn44.1:6.13","sn44.1:6.14"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"“Tena hi, mahārāja, taññevettha paṭipucchissāmi. Yathā te khameyya tathā naṁ byākareyyāsi.\nTaṁ kiṁ maññasi, mahārāja,\natthi te koci gaṇako vā muddiko vā saṅkhāyako vā yo pahoti gaṅgāya vālukaṁ gaṇetuṁ—\nettakā vālukā iti vā, ettakāni vālukasatāni iti vā, ettakāni vālukasahassāni iti vā, ettakāni vālukasatasahassāni iti vā”ti?\n“No hetaṁ, ayye”.\n“Atthi pana te koci gaṇako vā muddiko vā saṅkhāyako vā yo pahoti mahāsamudde udakaṁ gaṇetuṁ—\nettakāni udakāḷhakāni iti vā, ettakāni udakāḷhakasatāni iti vā, ettakāni udakāḷhakasahassāni iti vā, ettakāni udakāḷhakasatasahassāni iti vā”ti?\n“No hetaṁ, ayye”.\n“Taṁ kissa hetu”?\n“Mahāyye, samuddo gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho”ti.\n“Evameva kho, mahārāja, yena rūpena tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya taṁ rūpaṁ tathāgatassa pahīnaṁ ucchinnamūlaṁ tālāvatthukataṁ anabhāvaṅkataṁ āyatiṁ anuppādadhammaṁ.\nRūpasaṅkhāyavimutto kho, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho—\nseyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.\n‘Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti.","en":"“Well then, Great King, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like.\nWhat do you think, Great King?\nDo you have any accountant or finger-tallier or reckoner who can count the grains of sand in the Ganges, that is,\nhow many grains of sand there are, how many hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of grains of sand?”\n“No, ma’am.”\n“Do you have any accountant or finger-tallier or reckoner who can count the water in the ocean, that is,\nhow many gallons of water there are, how many hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of gallons of water?”\n“No, ma’am.\nWhy is that?\nBecause the ocean is deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom.”\n“In the same way, Great King, any form by which a realized one might be described has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future.\nA realized one is freed from reckoning in terms of form. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom,\nlike the ocean.\nTo say that after death, a realized one still exists, or no longer exists, or both still exists and no longer exists, or neither still exists nor no longer exists: none of these apply."}},{"id":"sn44.1:7","sourceIds":["sn44.1:7.1","sn44.1:7.2","sn44.1:7.3","sn44.1:7.4"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Yāya vedanāya tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya, sā vedanā tathāgatassa pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṁ anuppādadhammā.\nVedanāsaṅkhāyavimutto, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho—\nseyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.\n‘Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti.","en":"Any feeling …"}},{"id":"sn44.1:8","sourceIds":["sn44.1:8.1","sn44.1:8.2","sn44.1:8.3","sn44.1:8.4","sn44.1:8.5"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Yāya saññāya tathāgataṁ …pe…\nyehi saṅkhārehi tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya, te saṅkhārā tathāgatassa pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṁ anuppādadhammā.\nSaṅkhārasaṅkhāyavimutto kho, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho—\nseyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.\n‘Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti.","en":"perception …\nchoices …"}},{"id":"sn44.1:9","sourceIds":["sn44.1:9.1","sn44.1:9.2","sn44.1:9.3","sn44.1:9.4","sn44.1:9.5"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Yena viññāṇena tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya taṁ viññāṇaṁ tathāgatassa pahīnaṁ ucchinnamūlaṁ tālāvatthukataṁ anabhāvaṅkataṁ āyatiṁ anuppādadhammaṁ.\nViññāṇasaṅkhāyavimutto kho, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho—\nseyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.\n‘Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upetī”ti.\nAtha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo khemāya bhikkhuniyā bhāsitaṁ abhinanditvā anumoditvā uṭṭhāyāsanā khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ abhivādetvā padakkhiṇaṁ katvā pakkāmi.","en":"consciousness by which a realized one might be described has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future.\nA realized one is freed from reckoning in terms of consciousness. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom,\nlike the ocean.\nTo say that after death, a realized one still exists, or no longer exists, or both still exists and no longer exists, or neither still exists nor no longer exists: none of these apply.”\nThen King Pasenadi approved and agreed with what the nun Khemā said. Then he rose from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled her, keeping her on his right, before leaving."}},{"id":"sn44.1:10","sourceIds":["sn44.1:10.1","sn44.1:10.2","sn44.1:10.3","sn44.1:10.4","sn44.1:10.5","sn44.1:10.6","sn44.1:10.7","sn44.1:10.8","sn44.1:10.9","sn44.1:10.10","sn44.1:10.11","sn44.1:10.12","sn44.1:10.13","sn44.1:10.14","sn44.1:10.15","sn44.1:10.16","sn44.1:10.17","sn44.1:10.18","sn44.1:10.19"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo aparena samayena yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho rājā pasenadi kosalo bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:\n“kiṁ nu kho, bhante, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?\n“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, mayā:\n‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.\n“Kiṁ pana, bhante, na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?\n“Etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ mayā:\n‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.\n“Kiṁ nu kho, bhante, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?\n“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, mayā:\n‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.\n“Kiṁ pana, bhante, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?\n“Etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ mayā:\n‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.\n“‘Kiṁ nu kho, bhante, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭho samāno:\n‘abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, mayā—hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi …pe….\n“‘Kiṁ pana, bhante, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭho samāno:\n‘etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ mayā—\nneva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi.\nKo nu kho, bhante, hetu, ko paccayo, yenetaṁ abyākataṁ bhagavatā”ti?","en":"Then on a later occasion King Pasenadi of Kosala went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. He asked the Buddha exactly the same questions he had asked the nun Khemā, and received the same answers."}},{"id":"sn44.1:11","sourceIds":["sn44.1:11.1","sn44.1:11.2","sn44.1:11.3","sn44.1:11.4","sn44.1:11.5","sn44.1:11.6","sn44.1:11.7","sn44.1:11.8","sn44.1:11.9","sn44.1:11.10","sn44.1:11.11","sn44.1:11.12","sn44.1:11.13","sn44.1:11.14","sn44.1:11.15","sn44.1:11.16"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"“Tena hi, mahārāja, taññevettha paṭipucchissāmi. Yathā te khameyya tathā naṁ byākareyyāsi.\nTaṁ kiṁ maññasi, mahārāja, atthi te koci gaṇako vā muddiko vā saṅkhāyako vā yo pahoti gaṅgāya vālukaṁ gaṇetuṁ—\nettakā vālukā iti vā …pe… ettakāni vālukasatasahassāni iti vā”ti?\n“No hetaṁ, bhante”.\n“Atthi pana te koci gaṇako vā muddiko vā saṅkhāyako vā yo pahoti mahāsamudde udakaṁ gaṇetuṁ—\nettakāni udakāḷhakāni iti vā …pe… ettakāni udakāḷhakasatasahassāni iti vā”ti?\n“No hetaṁ, bhante”.\n“Taṁ kissa hetu”?\n“Mahā, bhante, samuddo gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho.\nEvameva kho, mahārāja, yena rūpena tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya, taṁ rūpaṁ tathāgatassa pahīnaṁ ucchinnamūlaṁ tālāvatthukataṁ anabhāvaṅkataṁ āyatiṁ anuppādadhammaṁ.\nRūpasaṅkhāyavimutto kho, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho—\nseyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.\n‘Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti …pe…\n‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti.\nYāya vedanāya …pe…\nyāya saññāya …pe… yehi saṅkhārehi …pe…."}},{"id":"sn44.1:12","sourceIds":["sn44.1:12.1","sn44.1:12.2","sn44.1:12.3","sn44.1:12.4"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Yena viññāṇena tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya, taṁ viññāṇaṁ tathāgatassa pahīnaṁ ucchinnamūlaṁ tālāvatthukataṁ anabhāvaṅkataṁ āyatiṁ anuppādadhammaṁ.\nViññāṇasaṅkhāyavimutto kho, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho—\nseyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.\n‘Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upetī”ti."}},{"id":"sn44.1:13","sourceIds":["sn44.1:13.1","sn44.1:13.2","sn44.1:13.3","sn44.1:13.4","sn44.1:13.5","sn44.1:13.6","sn44.1:13.7","sn44.1:13.8","sn44.1:13.9","sn44.1:13.10","sn44.1:13.11"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"“Acchariyaṁ, bhante, abbhutaṁ, bhante.\nYatra hi nāma satthu ceva sāvikāya ca atthena attho byañjanena byañjanaṁ saṁsandissati, samessati, na virodhayissati yadidaṁ aggapadasmiṁ.\nEkamidāhaṁ, bhante, samayaṁ khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ upasaṅkamitvā etamatthaṁ apucchiṁ.\nSāpi me ayyā etehi padehi etehi byañjanehi etamatthaṁ byākāsi, seyyathāpi bhagavā.\nAcchariyaṁ, bhante, abbhutaṁ, bhante.\nYatra hi nāma satthu ceva sāvikāya ca atthena attho byañjanena byañjanaṁ saṁsandissati, samessati, na virodhayissati yadidaṁ aggapadasmiṁ.\nHanda dāni mayaṁ, bhante, gacchāma.\nBahukiccā mayaṁ bahukaraṇīyā”ti.\n“Yassadāni tvaṁ, mahārāja, kālaṁ maññasī”ti.\nAtha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo bhagavato bhāsitaṁ abhinanditvā anumoditvā uṭṭhāyāsanā bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā padakkhiṇaṁ katvā pakkāmīti.\nPaṭhamaṁ.","en":"He said, “It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing!\nHow the meaning and the phrasing of the Teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without contradiction when it comes to the chief matter!\nThis one time I went to the nun Khemā and asked her about this matter.\nAnd she explained it to me with these words and phrases, just like the Buddha.\nIt’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing!\nHow the meaning and the phrasing of the Teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without contradiction when it comes to the chief matter!\nWell, now, sir, I must go.\nI have many duties, and much to do.”\n“Please, Great King, go at your convenience.”\nThen King Pasenadi approved and agreed with what the Buddha said. Then he rose from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled him, keeping him on his right, before leaving."}}]}],"sourceRevision":"afdafa92450cfe7573b280da50382888323666d2","sourceUrl":"https://suttacentral.net/sn44.1/en/sujato","licence":"CC0 1.0","licenceUrl":"https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/","editionNote":"Full supplied source file; inherited abbreviations are preserved. Not a reconstructed expansion of every repetition. No Malay or Mandarin translation is implied."}