{"id":"sn44.9","title":"The Debating Hall","languageCodes":["en","pi"],"languageNotes":{"en":"Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0","pi":"Mahāsaṅgīti edition · SuttaCentral"},"chapters":[{"id":"sn44.9","title":"The Debating Hall","units":[{"id":"sn44.9:0","sourceIds":["sn44.9:0.1","sn44.9:0.2","sn44.9:0.3"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Saṁyutta Nikāya 44.9\n1. Abyākatavagga\nKutūhalasālāsutta","en":"Linked Discourses 44.9\n1. The Undeclared Points\nThe Debating Hall"}},{"id":"sn44.9:1","sourceIds":["sn44.9:1.1","sn44.9:1.2"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Atha kho vacchagotto paribbājako yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodi.\nSammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho vacchagotto paribbājako bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:","en":"Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went up to the Buddha and exchanged greetings with him.\nWhen the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side, and said to the Buddha:"}},{"id":"sn44.9:2","sourceIds":["sn44.9:2.1","sn44.9:2.2","sn44.9:2.3","sn44.9:2.4","sn44.9:2.5","sn44.9:2.6"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"“Purimāni, bho gotama, divasāni purimatarāni sambahulānaṁ nānātitthiyānaṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ kutūhalasālāyaṁ sannisinnānaṁ sannipatitānaṁ ayamantarākathā udapādi:\n‘ayaṁ kho pūraṇo kassapo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.\nSopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:\n“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.\nYopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:\n“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.","en":"“Worthy Gotama, a few days ago several ascetics, brahmins, and wanderers who follow various other religions were sitting together in the debating hall, and this discussion came up among them:\n‘This Pūraṇa Kassapa leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people.\nWhen a disciple passes away, he declares that\nthis one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.\nAnd as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he also declares that\nthis one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there."}},{"id":"sn44.9:3","sourceIds":["sn44.9:3.1","sn44.9:3.2","sn44.9:3.3","sn44.9:3.4","sn44.9:3.5","sn44.9:3.6","sn44.9:3.7","sn44.9:3.8","sn44.9:3.9"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Ayampi kho makkhali gosālo …pe…\nayampi kho nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto …pe…\nayampi kho sañcayo belaṭṭhaputto …pe…\nayampi kho pakudho kaccāno …pe…\nayampi kho ajito kesakambalo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.\nSopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:\n“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.\nYopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:\n“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.","en":"This bamboo-staffed ascetic Gosāla …\nthe Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan …\nSañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta …\nPakudha Kaccāyana …\nAjita of the hair blanket leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people.\nWhen a disciple passes away, he declares that\nthis one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.\nAnd as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he also declares that\nthis one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there."}},{"id":"sn44.9:4","sourceIds":["sn44.9:4.1","sn44.9:4.2","sn44.9:4.3","sn44.9:4.4","sn44.9:4.5","sn44.9:4.6","sn44.9:4.7","sn44.9:4.8","sn44.9:4.9"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"Ayampi kho samaṇo gotamo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.\nSopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:\n“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.\nYopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tañca sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu na byākaroti:\n“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.\nApi ca kho naṁ evaṁ byākaroti:\n“acchecchi taṇhaṁ, vivattayi saṁyojanaṁ, sammā mānābhisamayā antamakāsi dukkhassā”’ti.\nTassa mayhaṁ, bho gotama, ahu deva kaṅkhā, ahu vicikicchā:\n‘kathaṁ nāma samaṇassa gotamassa dhammo abhiññeyyo’”ti?","en":"This ascetic Gotama leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people.\nWhen a disciple passes away, he declares that\nthis one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.\nBut as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he doesn’t declare that\nthis one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.\nRather, he declares that they have\ncut off craving, cast off the fetters, and by rightly comprehending conceit have made an end of suffering.’\nI had doubt and uncertainty about that:\n‘How on earth can I understand the ascetic Gotama’s teaching?’”"}},{"id":"sn44.9:5","sourceIds":["sn44.9:5.1","sn44.9:5.2","sn44.9:5.3","sn44.9:5.4","sn44.9:5.5"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"“Alañhi te, vaccha, kaṅkhituṁ, alaṁ vicikicchituṁ.\nKaṅkhanīye ca pana te ṭhāne vicikicchā uppannā.\nSaupādānassa khvāhaṁ, vaccha, upapattiṁ paññāpemi no anupādānassa.\nSeyyathāpi, vaccha, aggi saupādāno jalati, no anupādāno;\nevameva khvāhaṁ, vaccha, saupādānassa upapattiṁ paññāpemi, no anupādānassā”ti.","en":"“Vaccha, no wonder you’re doubting and uncertain.\nDoubt has come up in you about an uncertain matter.\nI describe rebirth for someone who grasps fuel, not for someone who does not.\nIt’s like a fire which only burns with fuel, not without fuel.\nIn the same way I describe rebirth for someone who grasps fuel, not for someone who doesn’t grasp fuel.”"}},{"id":"sn44.9:6","sourceIds":["sn44.9:6.1","sn44.9:6.2","sn44.9:6.3","sn44.9:6.4","sn44.9:6.5","sn44.9:6.6","sn44.9:6.7"],"kind":"text","text":{"pi":"“Yasmiṁ, bho gotama, samaye acci vātena khittā dūrampi gacchati, imassa pana bhavaṁ gotamo kiṁ upādānasmiṁ paññāpetī”ti?\n“Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye acci vātena khittā dūrampi gacchati, tamahaṁ vātūpādānaṁ paññāpemi.\nVāto hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī”ti.\n“Yasmiñca pana, bho gotama, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, imassa pana bhavaṁ gotamo kiṁ upādānasmiṁ paññāpetī”ti?\n“Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, tamahaṁ taṇhūpādānaṁ vadāmi.\nTaṇhā hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī”ti.\nNavamaṁ.","en":"“But when a flame is blown away by the wind, what does the worthy Gotama say is its fuel then?”\n“At such a time, I say that it’s fueled by the wind.\nFor the wind is its fuel then.”\n“But when someone who is attached has laid down this body and has not been reborn in one of the realms, what does the worthy Gotama say is their fuel then?”\n“When someone who is attached has laid down this body, Vaccha, and has not been reborn in one of the realms, I say they’re fueled by craving.\nFor craving is their fuel then.”"}}]}],"sourceRevision":"afdafa92450cfe7573b280da50382888323666d2","sourceUrl":"https://suttacentral.net/sn44.9/en/sujato","licence":"CC0 1.0","licenceUrl":"https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/","editionNote":"Full supplied source file; inherited abbreviations are preserved. Not a reconstructed expansion of every repetition. No Malay or Mandarin translation is implied."}